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Dogo Argentino => The forum in your language => English (Inglés) => Mensaje iniciado por: Chazio en 25 de Noviembre de 2006, 19:10

Título: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Chazio en 25 de Noviembre de 2006, 19:10
Hola Board,

 I have always been drawn to the aspect of the dogo's prowess as a big game hunter and HIGHLY interested in their experiences against their quarry. I find Kob de la Pampas to be a very interesting dogo to have read about and I welcome more details, articles and discussions on dogos that hunt pumas or have experiences with them.  I have read a great deal on the subject of functional gymnastics as well as field experiences, but I am simply hungry for more. I am not here to debate anything, simply to learn and discuss them. I have tons of questions and would love to have some feedback. I do realize that certain subject matters are sensitive and welcome emails to me if that best suites the conversation.

Thank you an I hope to enjoy a good conversation,
Best Regards,
Título: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: german_dogos en 25 de Noviembre de 2006, 19:42
Hi Chaz. Welcome.

For example, Kok de las Pampas had more of 100 fighting with pumas.
had you earing about of "pruebas de campo"?

In the my grandfather's forest there are pumas, and they cause problem like kill domestics animals.

Título: Thank You German
Publicado por: Chazio en 25 de Noviembre de 2006, 20:29
Thank you for replying!

 I have heard about Kob De las Pampas fighting pumas in the Andes mountains, but I had no idea as to how many times he did it actually. 100+ encounters is amazing! :D

 Yeah I have also heard of Preubas de campo before and have read a few articles on them, one by Jack Parry and a few others as well. I am always looking for more info on them as well as dogo experiences in the field against pumas. I have read articles on SA puma being predators of livestock, especially sheep and goingto great lengths to make numerous kills of sheep.

 Are there any articles where I can read more on Kob or read more on dogos hunting pumas?

Título: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: shalimar en 27 de Noviembre de 2006, 10:25
Hi chazio, we are debating in other post about "pruebas de campo".  You know what is it ?. What do you think about it ?.
Título: Thanks for the reply Shalimar
Publicado por: Chazio en 01 de Diciembre de 2006, 20:07
A strong topic deserves a strong response

Thank you for your reply and question. I have read many of the threads here and really taken in a lot of respectful views and important data regarding the field test or functional gymnastics to help assess and add onto my take on the field test. I have really debated the Preubas de campo subject matter for several years with some very excessive and scrutinizing people who have little understanding and or respect of the breed, which has been a very frustrating experience in the end. Leaving no productive progress in understanding or agreement, only to agree to disagree at best.

There are 3 Major Arguments that derive from discussing “Preubas De Campos”:

1. The Dogo’s Combative Prowess : Can a single good Dogo defeat a single quarry (boar/puma) in the field versus a cage match in “seemingly” controlled conditions?

2. The Legality, Code of Ethics & Conditions of the Field Test: This issue often brings in the unwanted legislations, radical biased animal activist, skepticism of the health and arsenals of the quarry being used and differences in Dogueros culture versus Dogo publicity and ill-fated/unwanted attractions.

3. Field Test ”Functional Gymnastics” applicability: What do these test prove or don’t prove and how do they effect the Dogo’s overall performance in the field.

 The fact that majority of the people I debated with, argued and contest such subject matters, are also fanciers of pumas didn’t help at all. The amount of biased and denials with assumptive excuses really didn’t help this discussion. To them, single dogos stood little chance against a cougar in the wild, especially a male adult. The field test videos and clips were all concluded as weaker sedentary specimen that weren’t as capable as their wild counterparts. They called all of the pumas defanged, dewclawed and severely muscle atrophied with no wild hunting experience and all captive raised. Their final evidence was the 2 published Bilo hunting stories that were published in the Dian publication. They felt that those two hunting accounts reflected the norm. They some how overlooked the fact that the hunting stories Bilo used to discuss with Dian were his more exciting accounts and were his legendary tales and most noteworthy challenges at that time, and not the reflection of the norm. "Day of the Trevelin" is not a normal hunting with boars, but going off of the biased critics logic would be. Even the story ”Leon of the Colorado”, of the puma male, the puma was considered a "Giant of his race". A giant of any species race is not the norm but this was dismissed very often by the biased critics.

There are various Internet pictures showing claws and fangs intact of cougars used in field test, and the damage they have inflicted on Dogos. There was the Jack Parry article which discussed claws and fangs intact, there was the discussion of Bilo lassoing pumas when the dogos had them immobilized thus capturing wild hunting specimens for the Preubas de campo, thus cougars with hunting experience, and I even posted a scientific study on how a Florida panther release program for captive raised and translocated pumas held in both short term and long term captivity were released with success and that their hunting skills were also successful and equal to their wild counterparts as they predated all of  their normal prey species, including large ungulates as deer and wild pig during the winter. I also made it clear that the pumas of the North American, region which may grow to far larger sizes “upon average” are not the same specimens in the South Americas, majority being in the uninhabited regions of Argentina, mainly southern patagonia which do not reach such larger weights “on average”. We may be talking the difference of 100-130lb SA adult pumas being giving the credentials and credit stats of NA pumas that may be anywhere from 160-220lbs. Big difference! I could go on and on but I rather not do that publicly versus personal emails and correspondence.

Most of the discussion/debate we had wasn’t about an ethical aspect or hunting functionality and practice of the field test, it was more so about a single good hunting dogo’s capability upon par to physically defeat a singe adult cougar whether in the wild or in the field test, but more so in the wild. The fact that Agustin Nores Martinez's very own, Kob De Las Pampas did this at times in the Andes Mountains should have made this an open and close case, but it didn’t. The level of disrespect and beyond reasonable skepticism/scrutiny /doubt that some people have for domesticated “rare” breeds that have successfully fought off such wild cats really astounds me a times. I do realize that in the end, this is a novice subject matter in the ”my favorite animal can beat your favorite animal, no it can’t!” mentality, but the level of disrespect to the breed and its historical proven combative performances by the same people who are very ignorant of the breed, was just infuriating for me to deal with at times. These people knew so little about the breed but were always so quick to demean them with their own self proclaimed expertise and speculations. The fact that most pumas typically will flee from confrontations that pumas know they can’t win and are treed was also negated as always the puma’s choice as it can’t allow for risk of injury, but never accepting the fact that when cougars do make their stands, they are also defeated and take flight. So it was really a debate on proving the prowess of each if they came face to face in the wild upon par.

My take on Field Test-Preubas De campo

 The fact of the matter is that the quarry in the field test should be and ideallymust be armed for teaching and testing the dog’s true grit and courage and heart and to help assess the dog’s reactions and adjustments to the attacks by the quarry. So claws and fangs of cougars when used in field-test by “true” Dogueros is very important. In some cases however, some people will resort to field test “only” and not use the dogo for its “true intent” and stronger merits as a pack hunter and in the field. This is where the field test become controversial in my humble opinion, and even in the hunter’s community. If the field test is used as a stepping stone phase and helps graduate the dogo to the hunting field where it is supposed to be and where it learns more so to fight in isolation, with many natural and unaccustomed to distractions, with the dogo tracking and pursuing across rigorous new terrains and still successfully lugging and defeating the quarry in the field, that’s where the dogo becomes a true “Dogo Argentine”, in my humble opinion. Not just in a cage match. That is the big difference where a seasoned dogo really gets more powerful over pumas. It’s the field seasoning that does it. But when the cage matches are all of the dogo’s life, they then become what some have called a “circus act”. This is what really gives the field test a bad name. This is where people much like dogfighters take bets on dogos Vs boars/pumas, file down claws, or the boar’s eye teeth (the sharp tips), leaving just enough to jut the dogs, becomes a misinterpreted role. This is where the poor condition quarry comes into to play and this is the only part that critics try to see and harp on.  This is what the propaganda will target and focus on. The multitude of crop/livestock damage that boars and plague pumas do & feral/ wild suid’s uncontrolled reproduction is seemingly ignored by these same critics.

The fact of the matter is that this is seriously frowned upon by “true” hunters and the true Dogueros, but biased critics have little to no respect for hunters and their huntsmen codes (the Doguero Culture), so whatever the matter is, if it leads to their favorite species the puma or some seemingly act of whatever, it will always be scrutinized excessively beyond reason by such critics. These critics don’t know that there is a significant difference between these field test. Such critics automatically assume the cat/boar to be inferior to it’s wild counterparts without any overall analysis on these pumas/boars populations in the test to back such assumptive reasonings.

The fact of the matter is that such test may “help” assess a young dogo’s ability and potential before it is introduced to the field where such ability or the lack there of can make a difference between life and death. Some people don’t even see these field test as actual fights. The danger and risk of injury and the full instinctive attempts by each contender to thwart the other is very much real and every aspect of a fight. The animals in the cage don’t know that this is a test, they are fighting with what they know are instinctive and in some cases with such as quarry as the boars and pumas, they are actually more experienced and adept at fighting these debuting young dogos. We all know that a dogged boar is very dangerous indeed, so why should I view such a contest as only a sparing match when the danger and threat is real, even if a hunter can intervene, it still takes time to do so, and a throat hold, eye gouge, etc. is very real and potential is there. We don’t call boxing matches fake or various martial arts events fake simply because there are intervening rules involved and controlled conditions (referees, illegal moves, points, etc.) to prevent it from going to the death. When the two step in the ring they are exhibiting their best shots in thwarting and or defeating the other. I see no difference in the Preubas De Campo. Perhaps when it is used more so for entertainment, I see it as utilizing two distinct species for the wrong purpose in the end, but it doesn’t demean or negate what the two contenders are actually doing. Only when one species is not up to code does things take another turn. But when the puma is allowed to rest and recover between days before fighting while the dogo may fight several times in the same day or on a hunt, really shows how powerful and respectful such a breed is. Something that requires serious heart, stamina and endurance with a drive and ability to do so successfully. As a martial artist I can clearly understand this aspect. Everyone starts out of the gate strong and at their best, but its how you end up when you are drained and winded and must still push yourself to fight and deliver “sufficient force” that counts if you can’t defeat the opponent early enough. That’s what counts and that’s what true hunters want to see in these field test. Can the dogo successfully secure a bite in such conditions, to see its heart, its aggressiveness and drive, and its abilities, etc. It would be unwise to take a dogo out to a hunt where it starts off strong but is to tired to fight the quarry as the day goes on and cant sufficiently lug or seize the quarry in an isolated situation, unless you kept the dogo by your side until arriving a the catch. But if the dogo became isolated in such a winded condition it could be potentially killed just by having no significant fight left, being physically drained because of previous fights and rigorous chases of previous quarry. It “must” be able to lug, fight and hold its own long enough, for at least the other dogs to arrive or the hunters if it is this winded. It is important for hunters to trust and know that their dogos can do this. This is what many critics will never admit or realize. This is why hunters do not care what such critics assume and speculate. There is nothing gained from arguing with such people. To be honest, most “True” hunters much rather and prefer that people know as little as possible about the breed in the end, as they know the more that is out there, the more they stand a chance in losing their hunting traditions by some biased legislative laws and misinterpreted perspectives. They prefer it this way versus legislations coming in and saying no more hunting with dogos on quarry, no more field test period, no more Monteria, and you need to pay extra for this and that in order to do what you use to do for free and by personal & cultural choice. And if you break such legislations you will be fined with this and that. This is far from what hunters want so the more ignorant the opposition the better.

Sorry for the long post, but I look fwd to the feedback and to share the discussion with mature views. I also welcome emailing me or sending me messages via my inbox as I am fully aware of this sensitive subject matter and I will not release or repost any of our private correspondence, pics, videos, refs, etc. I am just adding to my own private archives.

Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: choto en 10 de Diciembre de 2006, 16:34
I think the issue of pruebas de campo is a topic better left for the people who live in the campos.   Alot of city folk cant seem to understand the usefulness of such tests.   You will never convince my uncles that these tests are worthless.  Not only do their lives and families lives depend on these dogs for security of their land and food resources but also in their case their entire livelyhood depends on these dogs. 
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Kartograffo en 10 de Diciembre de 2006, 23:30
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Chazio en 13 de Diciembre de 2006, 05:33
Hey Choto,

I do agree with you in regards to some people leaving the subject matter alone, but in the case of those who are "truly" interested and respect the very nature and purposes of the hunts, the dogs employed, the hard work that went into creating them, and what it takes to preserve and make best selections for current day big game hunting operations, it is a very important subject matter to be discussed and learned with knowledgeable accuracy in my humble opinion.

 I have argued with people who refuse to understand or swllow their own pride about the subject matter, but I realized that this was already addressed by the creators when he speaks to those who either Dont understand or Choose not to understand.   

 I seek to simply learn more and discuss the matter with a honest hunger to gain more and own good hunters to do just that. I have read actual documents and reports on the damage that the jabali do to crops,land, livestock, ppl, etc. as well as what some of the SA pumas have done to livestock, so I clearly understand the threats that exist and the validity in the breed and what it takes to "best" preserve them and their attributes.

 I also clearly understand that this subject matter is a sensitive one as well.

Take Care,
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Agnes en 09 de Enero de 2007, 10:08
in my personal opinion Dogo as a hunting breed needs these tests (pruebas) because of preserving his true temperament and character.
In Europe is not easy to make such tests like these in Argentina and to hunt like Argentinians so we have to search others ways for testing our dogs - is it good for a breed ? Im nor sure :(  I know only 1, we should preserve true soul  of Dogo.

and sorry for my basic english
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Chazio en 16 de Junio de 2007, 21:13
Hello to all Dogo Argentino owners, Breeders and Hunters

 I am and avid fancier of the hunting breed and adept in the knowledge of the Dogo and I am here today to warn you of immature posters that are taking post and or excerpts from this thread and posting them in other forums that deal with animal vs animal where they beginning to demean the dogo and create unwarranted doubt of it’s prowess against South American pumas in a 1 versus 1 fight in the wild. We all know this is a rare occurrence and that it is not the focus of a hunt but that it has been historically proven and witnessed that a good single dogo has defeated adult pumas in the wild.

 I have been frustrated at times in my attempts to discuss this matter with them maturely and while some posters have accepted the truth with clarity, others like certain posters continue to demean the dogo and I just wanted to make sure that you all were aware of this aspect being that they are taking your words and twisting them around as their ammo. They don’t even have the respect to take the words of the most seasoned and expert hunters and that best illustrates their biased ignorance.

Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Chazio en 16 de Junio de 2007, 21:17
For those who would like to still email me or to follow up from previous emails that were sent and been responding to, please simply inbox them to me or email me and I will still follow up with you personally from henceforth. And thank you to all those who have been in contact with me thus far, great references and they are in good hands!!!!

Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Baily en 16 de Junio de 2007, 22:13
The whole Prueba de Campo thing is only valid and useful when its a Prueba meaning a test.
That means putting the Dogo against a wordy adversary that can and will test him.
This is not being done in most of the cases, they use adversary that are nothing more than canon meat, just there to give a good show or boost the dogs confidence but not to test it.
People are and will always be skeptical against story’s of Dogos or any other dog breed fighting big game. That’s normal, what is sad is that the videos they get or story’s they get are made and told by wannabees and are not a reflection of the reality. Most videos out there from Dogo vs Pumas does have altered and drugged Pumas fighting Dogos. They have a number of excuses as to why they cut the nails and pull out the teeth’s. Bottom line is they have dogs that cannot take the punishment from a real fight and its propaganda to boost their own self esteem and sell pups.
Don’t get me wrong, putting a inexperienced Dogo for the first time against a nasty Puma that is not altered is not wise either. But there are other ways and methods to protect the dog and altering a Puma should not been even considered. I saw a video where the Dogo was wearing a “bosal” to protect the Puma from being bitten but the Puma could and did scratch and bit the Dogo. Still the Dogo did not give up.
I say to all who are in Europe and always claim it is impossible or hard to test and hunt the Dogos.
There are people who live in Argentina close to wild boars and never test their dogs. Same people who say that its hard to test the Dogos in Europe import Dogos from Argentina from people that also do not test their dogs. Some famous imported Dogos from Argentina to Europe where tested for the first time here in Europe and not in Argentina.
There are more wild boars here in Europe than in Argentina, if you want to test or hunt your Dogo it is possible. Its just a matter of will, effort and priority. There is no excuse for not testing your Dogo other than its not a priority or lack of will.
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: choto en 12 de Febrero de 2008, 15:44
sup guys,  where i live,  this winter we had pumas come down from the mountains to look for food,  we even had gatos montes come down and hunt our animals and livestock.   my neighbours have chickens and goats and they lost several animals to them.   here the people are so experienced with them that they already know when to expect them usually and they dont waste time with dogs they just shoot them.  my neighbour killed a rare species of mountain cat here this winter with a 12 gauge becuase it killed 5 of his chickens.   when i go up the mountain with friends to visit the puesteros we always bring some sort of weapon becuase puma sometimes attack the horses,  a puestero friend of mine lost 3 horses last year to pumas,  best defence is putting a mule or 2 in the horse pack they will attack the pumas LOL.   last winter that same puestero friend killed a 175kilogram puma, thats like almost 550lbs kitty.
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Chazio en 13 de Febrero de 2008, 09:51
Hey Choto,
"550lbs" was this a mis-key? 175kg is a very large cougar, and puts it in the 350lb+ mark, but the largest I ever heard which I thought was the record in South America was 260lbs for a tom.

Any Pics of this specimen that your friend has?

 I have heard/read various things about mules versus predating cougars as well, though defensive reactions may simply be warding off the would be predators, though a large tom may indeed predate a mule I suspect.
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: choto en 13 de Febrero de 2008, 16:32
yea it was 170kilos he said.  the man is a puestero, he lives in an outpost up in the mountains with his family so i dont think he has money to afford a camara or anything most of those people live off tha land.  i had pictures of a mule fighting a puma somewhere on this comp if not i can get it from my horseforum website lol its actually pretty cool.
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Dragonmark en 05 de Marzo de 2008, 15:35
Pruebas should not be a public event.
It should be closed to outsiders or else the tree huggers will cry foul.
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: rkoeneke en 02 de Mayo de 2008, 22:02
What exercises/games can I play with my dogo to keep him strong and prepared for an encounter with a puma? I do not necessarily wish to hunt a puma with a dogo at this point, but I live in Colorado and we have plenty of puma's on my families ranch. I just want to be ready should I ever have an encounter.
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Iván Romero en 03 de Mayo de 2008, 00:29
you should teach him to avoid pumas, if you don't wanna see an encounter,
train him in a high fenced land, if you do want to when they get used to fight, it wont be a problem.

Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: Baily en 03 de Mayo de 2008, 04:16
What you can do and how you can train your Dogo depends on how old he is.
Título: Re: Interested in Dogos hunting puma
Publicado por: wand06 en 21 de Junio de 2009, 06:42
hi everybody i m passioned by this theme,is anybody have some pics of kob de las pamaps please,i m hardly looknig for it but very difficult,thanks